INDEPENDENT MEDIA IN A TIME OF WAR
Millions of people are taking to the streets around the world to say no to war. Half a million recently protested in New York City alone. But who are these people? Debate in the mainstream media often reduces them to Saddam-lovers, anti-american extremists and terrorist-sympathizers. Yet if you actually go out into the streets you see ragin' grannies, gospel singers, punk rock kids, businessmen, students, veterans, radical fairies, families with kids, and of course, hippies and anarchists. While condemning Saddam, they also reject the mentality that "you're either with us or you're with the terrorists." They are rising up and saying no to this war, not in our name. These are the people which independent media gives a voice.
Amy Goodman
Amy Goodman is the award-winning host of Democracy Now, the daily syndicated
radio program. Her reporting on East Timor and Nigeria has received top awards.
Along with Allan Nairn, she experienced a massacre of innocent civilians in East
Timor. She has earned a reputation for asking hard questions of people in power.
President Clinton has called her "hostile, combative and disrespectful."
Amy Goodman’s film lecture presents disturbing observations that describe how the U.S. media have abandoned their important function in our democracy in a time of war. Massachusetts Institute of Technology Professor
Noam Chomsky observes:
"In order for democracy to be ‘democratic’ the media has to fulfill two functions: One, the media must report the news fairly, completely, and without bias. And two, the media must function as a watchdog for the public against abuses of power."
As Goodman reminds us throughout the film, the media, especially corporate-owned media, have failed to provide accurate, unbiased information to citizens about the actions and policies of the current administration’s U S.-led war on Iraq. Goodman untangles the role of the media in reporting complex wartime events and provides a context in which to think about their role when she asks, "If this were State media how would it be any different?" Goodman advocates for independent media as a corrective to the "corporate lens" of mainstream media and a vital means of preserving the important democratic tradition of debate and dissent in times of war.
THE VIDEO WAR GAMES / GENERAL NEWS
KEY POINTS
» The militarization of the media coverage of the U.S.-led war on Iraq has compromised the democratic f unction of journalism.
» Media organizations are among the most powerful
institutions on earth. Both corporate-owned media
and independent media are used to shape public opinion and foreign
policy.
» U.S. corporate-owned media produce news for U.S. consumption that is different from news produced for international consumption.
» During wartime, citizens depend on journalists to provide accurate, unbiased information, to seek out and provide diverse opinions on important issues, and to monitor and report on the actions of those in power.
» It is important to ask questions about the images of war we don’t see, and about who selects the images of war we do see.
UNHEARD VOICES / CASUALTIES OF WAR, ETC.
KEY POINTS
» A FAIR study documents that less than 1% of war coverage among the four major
networks was devoted
to antiwar voices. Check out www.fair.org.
» The overwhelming majority of people who die in war are ordinary citizens and
their deaths go largely
unreported in U.S. media.
» Mainstream, corporate-owned news coverage of the U.S.-led war in Iraq is
provided both by reporters
embedded in the military and by military officials who are embedded
in the networks.
» International journalists have been far more critical of corporate owned media
coverage than U.S.
journalists.
DISSENT & DEMOCRACY
KEY POINTS
» Independent media actively resist censorship and restrictions on freedom of
speech by providing a
forum for dissent and debate.
» A large number of artist venues and radio stations are owned by major media
corporations that
sometimes pressure performers not to engage in political speech.
» One of the roles of journalists in a democratic society is to tell the stories
of the voiceless until they
can tell their own stories.
» In a democratic society, dissent should be commonplace – not silenced.
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INDEPENDENT
MEDIA IN A TIME OF WAR:
RUSH TRANSCRIPT: Select clips from a speech by Amy Goodman. AMY GOODMAN: The media are among the most powerful institutions on earth. Cuz they are not only among the wealthiest, but they are the way the whole world views us and we view each other. MUSIC AMY GOODMAN: The other morning I was invited on a commercial radio station, a little bit of a shock jockey station for a few minutes after the statue of Saddam Hussein was pulled down by the U.S. Marines in Baghdad. One of their first questions was "how do you feel now?" They also asked me about what I think about the torture rooms that were found. In talking about the torture rooms, I could only think about how important it was to be aware of what torture is. How horrific it is. Whether Saddam Hussein does it, that military tyrant who assured up by the United States for so long. Or the fact that now, there is an actually acceptable debate in this country, in the mainstream media about whether the U.S. should torture people to get information. And if the U.S. doesn't do it, for example those at Guantanamo Bay, those at Bagram Airbase in Afghanistan, isn't it O.K. to send them to countries that do engage in torture? I thought, those torture chamber's of Saddam Hussein are very important lessons to all of us about what is not acceptable in a civilized society, neither here nor there. There was a piece in the Wall Street Journal the other day about the difference between CNN and CNN International, two different networks owned by the same company. And they talked about the difference on that day, the day that the statue was pulled down. On CNN, all day we watched that statue pull down and went back up and pulled down again. NEWS FOOTAGE AMY GOODMAN: On CNN International they also showed the statue pulled down but it was a split screen and on half the screen they showed the casualties of war and on the other half they showed the statue pull down. Now I'm not talking about the difference between CNN and Al Jazeera. I'm talking about the difference between CNN and CNN International. It means that that company knows exactly what it's doing. What they provide for domestic consumption and what they provide to the rest of the world. Now think about what the rest of the world sees and what we see here in the United States. Some of you may have heard the hour discussion we had with CNN's Aaron Brown and we were asking him a lot of questions like "Where are the pictures of casualties in the U.S. media"? AARON BROWN: I think there are actually legitimate questions here about have we over sanitized this? AMY GOODMAN: And he said, "well some of them are tasteless". And we said, "well, war is tasteless". I was speaking at St. Mark's Church in New York and I talked about how Al Jazerra shows all these casualties pictures and a journalist came up to me afterwards from Berlin and said, "It's not just Al Jazeera that's showing these. All over Europe we see them day and night. It's just here in the United States that you don't see them". And so we asked Aaron Brown, "Why don't they show some of the shots", you know CNN was kicked out of Baghdad and he said "it's tough to get those shots". You have no trouble taking Al Jazeera's footage of the bombs over Baghdad, the kind-of fireworks display that we saw that night scape, but when it came to taking their pictures of casualties. Well, he said, "they're tasteless". I really do think that if for one week in the United States we saw the true face of war, we saw people's limbs sheered off, we saw the kids blown apart, for one week war would be eradicated. Instead what we see in the U.S. media and it's just quite astounding, it's the video war game. Those gray-grainy photographs with a target on them looking down but you don't see, we don't see those people as the targets on the ground. NEWS CLIP: The administration is very proud of the precision with which they went about yesterday's attack. FOX NEWS: There have been apparently very few casualties which is exactly what the United States government wanted, right Colonel? MUSIC AMY GOODMAN: A Newsday reporter asked me the other day, am I opposed to embedded reporters? You know they say it in the mainstream media, I don't know how to say it, they say and our reporter embedded with the Marines. NEWS CLIP: Our reporter, Diane Mearial
who is embedded with the British troops in southern Iraq. AMY GOODMAN: Even Walter Cronkite the other day raised some objections "What an unfortunate choice of words" he said. And he was critical. You rarely hear that criticism in the mainstream media, the working journalists today. What kind of critical reporting do we get? NEWS CLIP You might find this interesting that when the tanks are inspected it's not unlike taking your car to a gas station. Ah, they have a dipstick that they put into the engine to check the oil levels. NEWS CLIP No one does this better in the world than the American GI. AMY GOODMAN: It's this parade of retired generals that are on the network's payrolls. NEWS CLIP I'm back with two of our military analysts who've been with us this morning who are helping us understand this war. AMY GOODMAN: We now have people like Wesley Clarke, General Wesley Clarke on the payroll of CNN who is questioning their embedded reporter on the front line. He is questioning the reporter and the reporter is saying "Yes sir, No Sir". NEWS CLIP This is a very special moment in time for the men and families and for this country. It is often fascinating for me. General Clarke and I have spent a good amount of time together today and over the week. AMY GOODMAN: This is journalism in America today. They have redefined general news and we have got to challenge that. MUSIC AMY GOODMAN: Why is it if they have these retired generals on the payroll, they don't have peace activists and peace leaders also on the payroll? So let's have the same number of reporters embedded with Iraqi families, let's have reporters embedded in the peace movement all over the world, and maybe then we'll get some accurate picture of what's going on. Aaron Brown had some interesting comments. He said "no", because these generals are analysts. He said he admits they came late to the peace movement. But once the war started those voices are irrelevant because then the war is on. AARON BROWN: It's just not the relevant question right now. AMY GOODMAN: Why not? AARON BROWN: Because it's over. It's on. It's being done. AMY GOODMAN: I asked him, well how would the Vietnam War have ended then? And do you think we would have seen the most famous picture from the Vietnam War, that picture of the little girl with the Napalm burning all over her? Would we have seen that picture that helped end the war? And he said, "well, of course". I said, "how?". We're seeing these romanticized pictures of soldiers against sunsets and the planes on those aircraft carriers that the embedded photographers are getting at the sunrise hour. The Newsday reporter who did this profile today asked about my engaging in advocacy in journalism. And I said, "the establishment reporters are my model". NBC: Revolutionary coverage, the power of NBC news. AMY GOODMAN: Think about Dan Rather the night that the bombs started falling on Iraq. He said, "Good Morning Baghdad" DAN RATHER: CBS news has been told... AMY GOODMAN: And Tom Brokaw said "we don't want to destroy the infrastructure of Iraq because we're going to own it in a few days. TOM BROKAW: Shock and awe... AMY GOODMAN: And Peter Jennings was interviewing Chris Cuomo who is a reporter for ABC and he was out on the street, where we were, Times Square, thousands of people in the freezing rain who had come out to protest the war. They had all sorts of signs that were sopping wet and people were trying to keep the umbrellas up and the police charged a part of the crowd. Jennings said to Cuomo "what are they doing out there, what are they saying?" And he said, "well they have these signs that say no blood for oil but when you ask them what that means they seem very confused. I don't think they know why they're out here." I guess they got caught in a traffic jam. Why not have Peter Jennings, instead of asking someone who clearly doesn't understand why they're out there, invite one of them into the studio? And have a discussion like he does with the generals. NEWS CLIP: It's captivating to watch this technology at work. AMY GOODMAN: Why don't they also put doctors on the payroll. That way you can have the general talking about the bomb that Lockheed Martin made and the kind of plane that drops it and whether it was precision guided or not. And then you can have the doctor talking about the effect of the bomb. Not for or against the war, just how a cluster bomb enters your skin and what it means when your foot is blown off, if you're lucky and you're not killed. So why not have doctors and generals at least. But this is just to show how low the media has gone. FOX NEWS: Stay brave, stay aware and stay with Fox. AMY GOODMAN: You have not only Fox, but MSNBC and NBC, yes owned by General Electric, one of the major nuclear weapons manufacturers in the world. MSNBC and NBC as well as Fox titling their coverage taking the name of what the pentagon calls the invasion of Iraq. Operation Iraqi Freedom. So that's what the pentagon does and you expect that, they research the most effective propagandistic name to call their operation. But for the media to name their coverage what the pentagon calls it. Everyday seeing Operation Iraqi Freedom you have to ask, if this were state media how would it be any different? BUSH: In Iraq, the regime of Saddam Hussein is no more. MICHAEL MOORE at the Oscars: We live in a time where we have a man sending us to war for fictitious reasons. We are against this war Mr. Bush. Shame on you Mr. Bush. Shame on you. And anytime you've got the Pope and the Dixie Chicks against you, your time is up! Thank you very much. AMY GOODMAN: Even now the media has had to start reporting a little bit on the protest. But it's not those events that we're talking about. It's the daily drumbeat coverage who is interviewed on the front pages of the New York Times and the Washington Post for the headline stories and the network newscasts that matters. They're the ones shaping foreign policy. FAIR did a a study. In the week leading up to General Colin Powell going to the security council to make his case for the invasion and the week afterwards, this was the period where more than half of the people in this country were opposed to an invasion. They did a study of CBS evening news, NBC nightly news, ABC evening news and the NewsHour with Jim Lehrer on PBS. The four major newscasts. Two weeks. 393 interviews on war. 3 were anti-war voices. 3 of almost 400 and that included PBS. This has to be changed. It has to be challenged. We are not the only ones, Pacifica Radio, NPR stations, we are not the only ones that are using the public airwaves, they are too. And they have to provide the diversity of opinion that fully expresses the debate and the anguish and the discussions that are going on all over this country. That is media serving a democratic society. MUSIC AMY GOODMAN: For awhile in talks before the invasion, I've been saying as we see the full page pictures of the target on Saddam Hussein's forehead that it would be more accurate to show the target on the forehead of a little Iraqi girl because that's who dies in war. The overwhelming majority of people who die are innocent civilians. And then what happens on the first night of the invasion? Missile strikes a residential area in Baghdad. They say they think they've taken out Saddam Hussein. Independent reporter May Ying Welsh who stayed their as the bombs fell, who you heard on Democracy Now! on a regular basis, went to the hospital right after that first attack and there was a four-year-old girl critically injured from that missile attack and her mother critically injured and her mother's sister. That's who dies, that's who gets injured in war. Ghandi asking, you know when he was asked what do you think of Western civilization? He said I think it would be a good idea. Here are some of the headlines: Can you help me get my arms back? Do you think the doctors can get me another pair of hands? If I don't get a pair of hands, I'll commit suicide. These were the words of 12-year-old, Ali Ismail Abass, who lost his arms, was orphaned and received severe burns when a missile hit his home ten days ago. The wounded Iraqi boy has begun eating food and drinking normally after recovering from initial surgery at a hospital in Kuwait City to place a temporary graft over the deep burns in his chest, abdomen and groin. He's expected to undergo further surgery that will involve grafting skin from his own body. The badly burned child amputee has become the icon of civilian suffering in the U.S. led invasion of Iraq. His pregnant mother, father, brother and 12 other relatives died when a missile obliterated their home. One story. And I think of the woman from the shock jock station who asked, "now what do you think, are you really not going to call this a victory"? MUSIC AMY GOODMAN: I talked earlier about it being such a dark day for journalism in this country. It's a dark day for journalism around the world, with at this point they think 14 journalists killed. An incredibly high proportion of foreign deaths. We don't know the number of Iraqi deaths, thousands of people have been killed. But journalists, mainly unembedded reporters like those at the Palestine hotel. Everyone knew where the Palestine hotel was and it was packed with hundreds of reporters who are packed in like sardines when the U.S. military shelled the hotel, killing a Ukrainian cameraman. Killing a Spanish cameraman and then there was Tareq Ayub (sp), who is the Palestinian Jordain reporter who had just come in from Jordan and was at his office at Al Jazeera. Al Jazeera had given the coordinates to the office repeatedly to the Pentagon and maybe that was their first mistake. NEWS CLIP: We gave them the exact location in terms of longitude and latitude. The height of the building from the ground. AMY GOODMAN: Because the Pentagon dropped a missile on the Al Jazeera offices and killed the 34-year-old journalist. His wife, wailing in Amman at the funeral said, "hate breeds hate." The U.S. said they were doing this to route out terrorism, who's engaged in terrorism now? Abu Dabi TV, which was right next door, their competitor, the reporters were still broadcasting as the tanks surrounded them and they knew that they had already bombed the Al Jazeera offices, pleaded with anyone to help save them as the tanks surrounded and shelled their offices. In this country, there has hardly been a peep from the establishment mainstream media objecting to what the U.S. military has done. Pentagon spokesperson Victoria Clark, she was in charge of the Washington office in the first gulf war when that 15-year-old Kuwaiti girl gave that heart-rending testimony before the Human Rights Caucus about how she watched Iraqi soldiers drag Kuwaiti babies out of incubators. Turned out it was all a hoax, she was never there. She's the daughter of the Kuwaiti ambassador. Well the Pentagon was very impressed and she's now their spokesperson. The two Spanish journalists who died. Two, Jose Cousa from Telecinco. He was a cameraman and also the Spanish reporter who died, Julio Anguita Perado (ph), a reporter for Spanish newspaper El Mundo. When this happened the Spanish reporters, back in Spain, said "no" and they engaged in a one day strike. When the Prime Minister of Spain came to the Spanish Parliament, they laid down the tools of their trade, they put down their cameras, their pens and their pencils, they laid down the cables and the microphones and they turned their backs and said "Shame", that they would not record the words of the powerful who have condoned these acts. And then they went outside, hundreds of media workers. These were the elite journalists of Spain and they stood outside the U.S. Embassy, they blocked the intersection and they chanted "murderer, murderer". As the press in this country, unfortunately people like Ann Garrells of NPR, said that Tareq Ayub should have known better than to be in his office. The Agence France-Presse reporter in New York was outraged as he listened to this report. They got calls from all over, "How dare you blame the victim" and she a reporter herself and I watched on CNN as Aaron Brown asked General Wesley Clarke why this happened and he said, "well this was clearly a mistake". And Victoria Clark is put on saying that "they should know Baghdad is dangerous and they should not be there". I believe that's the role of reporters to go to where the silence is, to bring us the voices of people who are at Ground Zero. Now it's one thing if they were killed by others but they were killed by Victoria Clark's own troops and she never apologized. The pentagon has yet to do that and now 14 journalists are dead. It is a very strong message that is being sent to the world's reporters now that this embedding has become such a success. And that is you're in bed with the military or well, think about the Palestine hotel. MUSIC: And the mighty multi-nationals have monopolized the oxygen so it's as easy as breathing for us all to participate. AMY GOODMAN: On the night that the bombing began to go over to the Ani Difranco concert at the New Jersey performing arts center some of you may have heard what happened. You might wonder, why go on the moment that the bombs are about to fall, but 2000 young people were packed into the fine arts center in Newark, New Jersey to see Ani, a wonderful artist perform. And she said I could introduce her and also explain the importance of independent media in a time of war and where people could get alternative information. They were also going to have political tabling and we raced over to the performing arts center and I called the cell phone and Ani answered. I thought she was going on the stage and getting ready and I said "what are you doing answering this phone?" She said, "I don't know if the concert's going to go on. They'll probably close down the concert if you go on the stage, They said no political speech allowed but we are willing to risk this. They said take the mike and make your statement about democratic media in a time of war and if they close the mike which we expect, we have a mike right behind that's Ani's mike and pick it up and just keep on talking". Now why is this significant and why does it relate to the rest of the country? Clear-Channel is the very Bush-connected company that went from owning 47 radio stations to 1400 in no time at all. As the FCC and Michael Powell son of General Colin Powell who heads it are in the process of deregulating the media and so we have seen this explosion of ownership, except I would say a concentration of ownership, owning 1400 radio stations in the country. They are sponsoring pro-war rallies and they are saying that music that is critical of war cannot be played and their pushing other kinds of songs and they're saying no political speech aloud. Well we got up and we gave our little speech and they didn't close the mike and Ani got up and she said, "that's one for the people and zero for the knuckle-heads." and then she sang... ANI DIFRANCO: Your next bold move. The next thing you're going to need to prove to yourself... AMY GOODMAN: These are very serious times at every level. Michael Franti, the great hip-hop artist just told his story on Democracy Now! of being at a concert on the east coast, flying home to California, and the FBI knocking on the door. The FBI knocking on the door of one of the band members homes, and starting to question them and showing them pictures of their performance the night before on the east coast. And starting to question about who everyone is. He described getting his MTV email. These are artists who've got their music videos that said, "we will play no songs that say the word war". This all has to be challenged. Our mission is to make dissent commonplace in America so you're not surprised when you're at work, someone walks over to the water cooler and makes a comment and someone isn't shocked and says, "what's that all about?" but that it comes out of the finest tradition that built this country. People engaged in dissent. We have parallel worlds in this country. For some it's the greatest democracy on earth. There is no question about that. But for others, immigrants now in detention facilities, they have no rights, not even to a lawyer. And we have to be there and we have to watch and we have to listen. We have to tell their stories until they can tell their own. That's why I think Democracy Now! is a very good model for the rest of the media, as is the Indy Media Center all over the country and the world. Built on almost nothing except the goodwill and the curiosity and the interest and the passion of people who are tired of seeing their friends and neighbors through a corporate lens and particularly tired and afraid of the fact that that image is being projected all over the world. That is very dangerous. Dissent is what makes this country healthy. And the media has to fight for that and we have to fight for an independent media. MUSIC. |
CHARLIE ROSE show
Wednesday, March 12, 2003
HOST: CHARLIE ROSE
GUESTS: AMY GOODMAN
Transcript by:
Strictly Business
P.O. Box 12361
Overland Park, Kansas 66282
CHARLIE ROSE: Amy Goodman is here. She is a journalist; she is the host of
"Democracy Now!" -- a radio program broadcasting on the Pacifica Radio network.
The show is an outlet for those in opposition to a possible war with Iraq. This
month it will expand to two hours in order to accommodate more reporting on the
war if it comes. Goodman has received the Robert F. Kennedy Journalism Award,
the George Polk Award, and the Overseas Press Club Award. I'm pleased to have
her here at this table for the first time. Welcome.
AMY GOODMAN: It's good to be with you, Charlie.
CHARLIE ROSE: I should say it's also on television.
AMY GOODMAN: Yes. We are now the largest public media collaboration on the country. We're broadcasting on Pacifica Radio, Community Radio Stations, NPR stations around the country, and also on satellite television, on Free Speech TV, on public access TV stations around the country.
CHARLIE ROSE: Get that America?
AMY GOODMAN: And the reason I say that is just because we need public media now.
CHARLIE ROSE: Of course.
AMY GOODMAN: In a time of war we need independent reporting.
CHARLIE ROSE: I don't know what that means independent in contrast to what?
AMY GOODMAN: It means not being sponsored the corporations, the networks like CBS, ABC, NBC owned by General Electric -- or CBS owned by Viacom or Disney is ABC.
CHARLIE ROSE: My point would be in response to that is we do need because you bring a quality of broadcasting and more people ought to have access to the media in order for more voices reporting. Having said that, I promise you CBS news and ABC News and NBC News are not influenced by the corporations it may own those companies. I know one of them very well and worked for one of them. Tell me about what’s going on as you see it in the country in opposition to the war.
AMY GOODMAN: There's a powerful force not only in the country but around the world -- on February 15th, 30 million people the world gave a global response war and they said no. Tens of thousands of people marched. Hundreds of thousands, millions and New York alone around half a million people. This is unprecedented. You have one force that is George Bush representing the most powerful arsenal on earth and then you have another force, the voice of people -- not their so called leaders but the people around the world.
CHARLIE ROSE: When you -- they are being heard -- what is it you think, what assumption you think the White House is making having listened to the president's press conference, having to the listened to the voices of protests, having read and thought about this yourself, what assumptions do you think the White House is making or the administration is making that are wrong?
AMY GOODMAN: I don't really know what the administration thinks, but I have a pretty good sense of what people in this country -- I mean the majority of people are opposed to war. I think George Bush is making a very serious miscalculation thinking that he can side with basically those that brought him to power, which is certainly not the majority of people in this country as we know from the Election 2000. He was selected he was not elected. And what he has done is he has tried to basically say that he has got the power, right, he is -- he represents the most powerful country on earth. It's true but the people represent something more powerful. And there is corporate globalization. That he represents but there's grassroots globalization. One thing George Bush has succeeded in doing is united people around the world against him.
CHARLIE ROSE: What is it you think back to my point, is it they are simply against war or are they against war against Saddam Hussein or are they against the United States period?
AMY GOODMAN: I think people in this country and around the world are against a U.S. invasion of Iraq. The media will sometimes show a picture of a target on Saddam Hussein's forehead. I think it would be much more accurate to show a target on the forehead of a little Iraqi girl because that's who dies in war. The majority of people who die in war are innocent civilians. And there are people all over in this country in those protests holding signs that say things like how many lives per gallon and no blood for oil. They don't think that little Iraqi girls should die for their gas tank. Another thing - I often refer to the Bush administration as the “Oiligarchy-“ look at who we have there-- we have George Bush who was an oil man. You have Dick Cheney the vice president former head of the largest oil services corporation in the world. You have Condoleezza Rice. She had a Chevron Oil tanker named off her the Condoleezza Rice. And they represent a force that people are beginning to very clearly understand. And they are saying no to it.
CHARLIE ROSE: But as soon as you say that I don't have to tell you this you know this. You know, Condoleezza Rice came to her position having been provost at Stanford University one of the great universities in this country -- elected by not oil men, but elected by faculty and board of the trustees there.
AMY GOODMAN: Condoleezza Rice was on the board of Chevron, the largest oil company, headquarters in California. But it's not just Condoleezza Rice. It is a group in Washington D.C. in the government that I think very much has lost touch with the American people. We have not seen the level of protest in this country in many, many years. This is far greater than we saw before the Vietnam War, and I really do think the most important message right now is that war is not inevitable.
CHARLIE ROSE: Certain questions I want to raise. What I would love to hear you from and what I am hearing is a sense of how you sit there at that microphone and hear this protest against the war and exactly how you see it and what distinctions do the people make. Clearly there is no one who is protesting this war who looks with favor upon Saddam Hussein because he has done violence and has killed men women and children in atrocious means, correct, so everybody is opposed to Saddam Hussein?
AMY GOODMAN: Unfortunately not everyone. Ask Donald Rumsfeld. He should be asked this question. We have the defense secretary who in 1983 and in 1984 went to Baghdad, shook hands with Saddam Hussein, at a time when both the State Department and United Nations had come out with reports saying he had used chemical weapons against Iranian soldiers there was Donald Rumsfeld as Pres. Reagan's envoy there, sent there to normalize relations with Saddam Hussein. So I think he needs to be asked why he served as the point man to normalize relations to allow for U.S. companies to sell all sorts of support to Saddam Hussein. We have to look at that history and understand how Saddam Hussein was shored up - this dictator - all of these years.
CHARLIE ROSE: And supported in the war against Iran that he launched.
AMY GOODMAN: We're talking about terror. Right now we're talking about use of chemical and biological weapons. Where did he get these? That I joke which unfortunately is not a joke going around is the reason that the U.S. knows he has various components for weapons is because the U.S. has got the receipts. It is very important to point out that they knew he was using this at the time and by the way, the U.S. not only normalized relations with Saddam Hussein, but they also provided coordinates, the intelligence for him to gas Iranian soldiers.
CHARLIE ROSE: Back to Saddam Hussein and intent, if you listen to the president's press conference he said the following things. He said I believe that Saddam Hussein is a threat to the national security of the United States. I'm president I'm sworn to uphold and defend the national security of United States. I believe that that is my constitutional responsibility. And I believe that Saddam Hussein may be acquiring weapons of mass destruction or have them and that he may as he has used them against his own people may in fact be in some kind of alliance in the future with terrorist organizations like al-Qaida. Does any of that bother you?
AMY GOODMAN: The Bush administration has not proven its case at all. In fact, it's own intelligence agencies like the CIA have said a number of things. Yes, I am concerned about national security in this country. George Tenet -- when testifying before the Senate a few weeks ago -- said that a new nuclear arms race is being launched among small nations. I think that is connected to Donald Rumsfeld saying he will not rule out a preemptive nuclear attack. This is very frightening. If countries think they cannot defend themselves, they will arm themselves. I'm afraid we in the United States are at the root of this new nuclear arms race. This is threatening to us. George Bush in his couldn't quite call it a press conference but in that event last week, he said at the beginning of his talk because really that’s what it was -- it was a few questions asked by reporter, but he basically made a few points and did not respond to most of the questions. He said at the beginning could you imagine Saddam Hussein is bugging the weapons of inspectors et cetera. I think there's an important story that is hardly getting picked up in this country, it was put out by the Observer of London and it's about a top secret national security agency, NSA memo that went to both the British intelligence and U.S. intelligence talking about the bugging of U.N. Security Council diplomats specifically the middle six countries: Chile, Pakistan, as well as Angola -- and Cameroon and Guinea to bug their home phones as well as their office phones their e-mails to see what they are thinking to try to sway them. I don't think this represents a democracy. I know that the Chilean delegation behind the scenes is absolutely outraged knowing what it meant to live under the Augusto Pinochet dictatorship. I think we have to ask very serious questions about the means that the U.S. Government is getting to try to get support for this war. I think the greater think threat to national security is this push for an invasion of Iraq -- even the CIA says that Saddam Hussein is not likely to attack unless he is attacked first. This is what is the great threat to national security is a preemptive strike against Iraq. George Bush is engaged right now in a kind of global sniper politics. What was so scary about the snipers? We didn't know where they would strike next. And that's what countries see around the world. We have Afghanistan. We then hit Yemen with a missile. I didn't know we had declared war on Yemen; then it is Iraq.
CHARLIE ROSE: Before you go on let me ask you were you opposed to the military action that took place in Afghanistan as a response to 9/11 and what happens there in terms of the attack on Afghanistan and kicking out the Taliban?
AMY GOODMAN: Yes, I don't think that war, that the killing of innocent civilians is the answer. After 911, you had journalists on television saying 90 percent of Americans are for war. I never believed it. What was the question people were asked. If they were asked do you believe the killing of innocent civilians should be avenged by the killing of innocent civilians more than 90 percent of Americans would say no. Americans are a compassionate people I think level of resistance to war and what George Bush is engaged in now is tremendous in to country and an untold part of story is the level of resistance within the military as well. I was just out at Kirtland Air Force Base in Albuquerque where thousands were protesting a Bush invasion of Iraq.
CHARLIE ROSE: Thousands of citizens from Kirtland?
AMY GOODMAN: Thousands of citizens from Albuquerque, New Mexico, outside the Air Force base. They talked about the vigil they kept there and how one day they were standing with their signs and a military man went by and he rolled down his window and said hang in there. Years ago, I went on the Sally Jesse Rafael Show during the Persian Gulf War; she had six women three for; four against the war. After I left the program and it aired, the most interesting response I got was from women on southern military bases who called up and said we agree with you. And they said they can't have knees debates on military bases but they rely on us and civilian society to have these debates and we need the mainstream media to be there to provide a forum in a democratic society for a debate. Unfortunately in this country I have to disagree with you Charlie respectfully on the issue of NBC, CBS, and ABC -- they have provided a very serious disservice to the people of this country when it comes to a true debate around war. Most people are opposed to war yet the vast majority of guests across the board on the networks are for war. They’re a parade of retired generals and -
CHARLIE ROSE: You can make that argument and look at it. That's not the point I was taking. The point I was making is it's not dictated by with whoever the corporate ownership is. I promise you that -- they are not dictating. They are not saying we want you to have more generals who are in favor of the war than you have generals who are in opposition to the war; that’s just not the way it works.
AMY GOODMAN: They don't have to say that. They hire the people who will do just that.
CHARLIE ROSE: The argument I have with respect is Peter Jennings, Tom Brokaw, and Dan Rather -- a whole range of people -- are journalists who have paid their dues and they are very competent journalists who are reporting for news magazines and those broadcasts. As soon as I say that you know I say how important it is I think that you what do and others have an opportunity to be part of the debate.
AMY GOODMAN: I could only say that during the Persian Gulf War what we saw on NBC and CBS, NBC owned by General Electric - at the time CBS was owned by Westinghouse -- two of the major nuclear weapons manufacturers in the world -- I don't think it was any accident that what we saw on TV was a military hardware show.
CHARLIE ROSE: Dan Rather was working at CBS before Westinghouse even became a partner -- bought CBS.
AMY GOODMAN: It's not about just one person.
CHARLIE ROSE: You are suggesting that because they choose the people. I’m just saying that this is a debate for another time which I'm happy to have them come and talk about that.
AMY GOODMAN: Let me quote Dan Rather himself on BBC -- he says he thinks he would be necklaced. He thinks he that he cannot simply speak out and ask the kinds of questions that should be asked. That's quoting Dan Rather.
CHARLIE ROSE: I'm surprised to hear that. Don't doubt that he said or don't know that he said it but I'm not quarreling with your source. I'm surprised since he and I are colleagues at 60 Minutes II that he doesn't -- I just don't believe that that is his -- that that is his opinion that he can't ask anything he wants to. I think he felt like he could ask anything of Saddam Hussein he wanted to and he said to me chose the questions he wanted to ask.
AMY GOODMAN: Overall I would just challenge…
CHARLIE ROSE: Not dictated by anybody in New York.
AMY GOODMAN: Well, I would just challenge the mainstream media to open up the ranks to provide a forum for the full diversity of voices that represent this country and people around the world.
CHARLIE ROSE: That's a perfectly good idea. I don’t have any argument with that idea. I mean, I do have an argument with sort of -- with what you have said about who they listen to in terms of their reporting because I have such respect for the people going to the battlefields and reporting from New York in terms their own integrity. It's wrong to impugn their integrity.
AMY GOODMAN: I was just quoting Dan Rather.
CHARLIE ROSE: Congratulations for the work you do. Thank you for coming. Will you come back?
AMY GOODMAN: I'd be honored.
CHARLIE ROSE: Amy Goodman, Pacifica Radio. Thank you for joining us. See you next time.